file Let's Discuss Bass - Music and Movie/Video

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ArthurDaniels Posted 1 year 10 months ago
#23540
Hi Gang,

I have been conducting some new experiments with my current setup. I decided to try my new "augmented bass" approach in a different manner. My thought was that, if I connected the sub outputs from my CXR120 Receiver to the LFE inputs on my Triton Ones, then used the CXR120 volume control to add additional bass for low-volume listening, then using the Triton subs might produce a better sound than using my two external subs.

I was quickly disabused of that assumption. Adding bass via the Triton Ones LFE inputs dramatically increased the bass (as expected from previous experience), but degraded the overall sound. As Mr. Moderator has mentioned in previous forum posts, adding bass directly via the Triton Series Speakers LFE inputs is not recommended. After this experiment, I have concluded that his advice is indeed correct.

So, I reverted to my previous setup to provide augmented bass at low listening levels - that is, using my two external subs to handle the bass signals from my CXR120 Receiver sub outputs and letting the Triton Ones play Full Range with just speaker inputs from my 851A Stereo Amplifier.

I have added one more piece of gear to my setup - my Chase Technologies RLC-1 Line Controller to act as a level controller for the augmented bass signals from the CXR120 Receiver. The RLC-1 has remote variable line-level volume capability, which allows me to vary the amount of augmented bass I add at low volumes, depending upon the source material.

I can also remotely turn the RLC-1 off and turn the two external subs off when augmented bass is not desired.

Because I am also using the CXR120 to drive my Triton Sevens as Surrounds and my SuperSat3s as Surround Backs, I also discovered that setting all speaker settings in the CXR120 to Small produced a noticeably better overall sound. My speculation is that because I am sending the CXR120 bass signals to the external subs, I created an overall smoother sound pattern in my room by removing bass content from the Surround and Rear Surround speakers.

Thinking about that result, I have concluded that I do not need bass from the rear of the room - especially not in a surround-sound setup when there are electronic delays and other sound alterations being introduced by the CXR120 processing circuits as part of the surround-sound emulation process. When listening during my tests with those speakers set to Large, there seemed to be what I will call "audible confusion" within the bass signals emanating from the Triton. Sevens and the bass signals emanating from the front-positioned external subs.

During all tests and at all other times, I have all CXR120 and 851A tone controls set to flat positions and I am not using any other sound-altering features, such as Loudness controls or Dolby Leveling controls.

I have left the subs at maximum high-frequency crossover and the CXR120 subs crossover at maximum high-frequency. Altering these settings also introduced unwanted sound effects in the music.

Bottom line:

1. When listening at normal room volume, the external subs are turned off, the Surrounds are volume-matched to the Triton One Fronts and all bass is coming from the Triton Ones via speaker-only connections.

2. When listening to music with bass content at low volume, a subtle amount of augmented bass is added via the external subs.

3. When listening to music with little bass content (a capella voices, for example), external subs are turned off.

4. When watching movies, I use my totally separate AV sound system, with the sub output being sent to the Triton Ones LFE inputs to take advantage of the superb bass support system.

For anyone else who feels that some bass augmentation might be desirable for music, I strongly recommend trying to obtain it by connecting audio signals of any kind to the Triton Series LFE inputs. Implement a separate sub woofer and drive that sub with either line outs from an amp or with sub outputs from an AV Receiver. Find some way to control these input signals and place the sub in the front of the room - preferably between the Triton front speakers.

I hope this explanation and summary is of help to other folks - particularly anyone who is just beginning the journey.

Happy listening to all,

Art
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ArthurDaniels Posted 1 year 9 months ago
#23666
Well, Gang - here I am again to update my previous long post.

After extended listening to my system with the CXR120 Sub Outputs connected to my external subs, I came to the conclusion that adding extra bass at low listening levels via the external subs resulted in undesirable sound - due, in my opinion, to the different bass sound characteristics between the Triton One sub sections and the external subs.

Therefore, I decided to dedicate my two external subs to my Movie Sound System. After some thought, I decided to connect the Record Out line signal from my Cambridge 851A Integrated Amp to the Line Input on my Chase RLC-1 Line Controller. Then, I connected one of the Line Outputs from the Chase unit to the Triton One Sub Inputs.

With this setup, I can add a bit of bass augmentation via the dreaded "Double Bass" method when I am listening at low volume. The Chase unit has a flat response and the output level can be varied via the Chase Remote.

Unlike the results of trying this arrangement with the CXR120 LFE outputs (described in my last post as unsatisfactory), the bass augmentation via this arrangement is very musical and can be very subtle.

At normal room volume listening levels, I simply turn the Chase unit off and let the Triton Ones handle the bass via their internal crossover networks.

For anyone else who might want to try a similar approach to augment bass at low listening levels, I recommend a web search to find an acceptable line-level signal controller with a remote. The Chase RLC-1 is an excellent device but has been out of manufacture for a number of years.

Happy Listening to all,

Art
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rjohn79395 Posted 1 year 9 months ago
#23667
Hi, Art

Thanks, sounds (pun intended) like a pretty rational next step in your hunt for”the perfect bass”!

The T1’s, moderately teased to add more bass, should integrate additional bass more musically than different subs not as well matched tonally..

So this is step no. X in the infinite progression of gear, room, speaker variable testing. A pretty good place to land!

Can’t wait for test no. X+1! :cheer:

Rick
5.4.4 HT speakers: T Ref fronts/LFE 1, SuperCenter Ref, T1 surrounds/LFE 2, HTR 7000 top fronts, Invisa 525 top rears
Zone 2 speakers; 2 Invisa 525's
AVR: Marantz SR 7010
Amps: AT525NC 5 channel, Parasound 275 v.2 stereo
Cable/TiVo, OPPO BDP 105D, Bluesound Node 2i
47" Panasonic 3D smart tv
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ArthurDaniels Posted 1 year 9 months ago
Last edit: 1 year 9 months ago by ArthurDaniels. info_outline
#23669
Hi Rick,

I may be running out of options. There are, after all, a finite number of possibilities with the gear I have.

At this time, there are no plans afoot to add to the gear.

Because we spend a couple of hours most mornings having our "coffee time" together and listening to music and because Sheryl likes low volume music, I have been interested in finding the best sound for the various types of music to which we listen during our "coffee time".

Much of what we listen to is choral music and much of the choral music is a capella - which means no bass augmentation regardless of the volume level.

Where I miss the bass most at low volumes is when listening to piano, bass and drums jazz (and similar combos, such as Dave Brubeck). The other type in which I miss bass is pipe organ at low volume.

I suppose I think of added bass at low volume as "Restored Bass" rather than "Double Bass".

Best,

Art
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rjohn79395 Posted 1 year 9 months ago
#23672
Hey, Art

Just a curiosity question: with your new set up, using the T1's only for bass, if you boost the bass via the bass dials on the T1's during low sound level listening, vs. using separate feeds to the 1's from the Cambridge via the sub channel, is the effect the same?

Gotta' say you have an easy way to get that bass boost the way you're doing it now, adjusting I presume as you listen, via the Line Controller.

Happy listening!

Rick
5.4.4 HT speakers: T Ref fronts/LFE 1, SuperCenter Ref, T1 surrounds/LFE 2, HTR 7000 top fronts, Invisa 525 top rears
Zone 2 speakers; 2 Invisa 525's
AVR: Marantz SR 7010
Amps: AT525NC 5 channel, Parasound 275 v.2 stereo
Cable/TiVo, OPPO BDP 105D, Bluesound Node 2i
47" Panasonic 3D smart tv
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ArthurDaniels Posted 1 year 9 months ago
#23685
Hi Rick,

I have the Bass Level Control on my Triton Ones set to between 1:30 and 2:00. I have tried settings from 12:00 to 3:00. At 12:00, there is not quite enough bass at the my version of full room volume. At 3:00, the bass becomes a little "Boomy" at my full room volume.

I have never tried to adjust the Ones' Bass control to compensate for listening at low volume. I never considered that approach because of the effort required to manually adjust the bass for dynamic situations.

You are correct. Having a remotely-controlled method to adjust the bass is very handy. Being able to slightly boost the bass to compensate for differences in listening volume and for differences between recordings is very pleasing. Also, being able to turn this capability on and off remotely is very nice.

When I listen to classical music, I generally want little to no added bass. Even when I listen to "thumpy jazz" at low volume levels, I find that I need to add very little bass, compared to the amount I could add with this "Augmented Bass" approach.

I am also finding that I much prefer the front sound from just my two Triton Ones, with the added "room-filling" sound from my Triton Sevens and SuperSats in the rear adjusted to enhance the room presence rather than being heard from my PLP. Currently, I am running my Sevens and SuperSats in the "All Channel Stereo" mode, rather than in a Surround-Sound mode.

Adding a bit of bass with this methodology is very simple with just the addition of a remote-controlled line-level volume control device. Because just low frequencies are involved, I would imagine that the controller does not have to be expensive or have super specs. For example, there is a device on Amazon ( MCM CUSTOM AUDIO 50-8394 LINE LEVEL VOLUME CONTROL IR REMOTE) which I think might be suitable and sells for less than $40.00.

I predict that I will stay with this arrangement.

I think I have tried about all of the options available to me and this one is the simplest, best-sounding and most flexible approach I have found.

Best,

Art
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