file Question about Full-Range/Large & LFE input

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Moderator Posted 3 years 4 months ago
Last edit: 3 years 4 months ago by Moderator. info_outline
#13858

Jarery wrote:

imahawki wrote: Finally, the other channels. This is where bass management comes in. Any speaker you set to small, your AVR will send the bass to wherever it sends the LFE channel. This is IN ADDITION to the LFE channel. They're still separate!!! If you have no subs, it will take all that bass from ALL your small speakers and send it to the L/R speakers. If you do have a sub, it will send it to the subwoofer. This routing has zero impact on the LFE channel.

Clear as mud?


Imahawki Thanks for the post. Your explanation is what I had also believed it should be. And here's where the confusion comes in, and why I asked specifically what happens to the audio under the crossover point from speakers set to small when a system has L&R set to large and the AVR sub out set to yes.

Moderator dude replied with the following : OK, here's a simple answer to the main question at the end: In that scenario C, all the bass below the crossover on small setting channels goes to the Large Main L/R speakers. Only LFE goes to your outboard subs (only).

This is counter to what you just posted. From my understanding based on Moderators reply, the ONLY way to get the bass under crossover setting from small speakers to get routed to an external sub is to have all the speakers set to small. As soon as any speakers are set to large, they receive all the bass from the small speakers. The only bass going to external subs in a system with Large speakers is LFE.

Yep, lots of mud. Perhaps Moderator can help clear the water again


You bet, simple answer, imahawki (and anyone else that says that) is wrong (no offense, confusing subject as all have said). Bass management operational/functional definition actually comes from Dolby (if you have a receiver or processor that does Dolby decoding, that would be everything, it has to conform to Dolby's bass management spec. There are actually five levels to this spec (or at least used to be, maybe there's more now) in terms of implementation options (levels of complexity actually). You need to be a licensee to see the spec document, and I was, and know it in detail, and was involved in implementation of the user interface for a very well respected electronics brand - in case my credentials are in question.

If Main (L/R) speakers are set to LARGE, LFE channel does not get SMALL channels' bass. That said, there are settings (like bass+ or double bass) that defeat this functionality. On most systems, if you answer NO to subwoofer you are forced to/can only set Mains to LARGE.
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Jarery Posted 3 years 4 months ago
#13859
Yes, depending where you read, including manufacturers sites, the information still conflicts. I have a Devon AVR and it works differently than as posted on the SVS site. Below is from denon and according to it in order to get the bass from small speakers to redirect to a sub if the mains are large is with "double bass". Rest of post is from site cut & paste.

In the Speaker Configuration menu, when the speaker channel is set to "Small" the Bass Setting or *Subwoofer Mode menu can be set to LFE or LFE + Main. This will pass all frequencies under the crossover point to the Subwoofer.

If the speaker channel is set to "Large" you may want to set the Bass Setting or *Subwoofer Mode set to LFE + MAIN as this setting will duplicate the low frequencies to the Subwoofer. If you set the Bass Setting or *Subwoofer Mode to LFE nothing will output to the Subwoofer with the exception of the LFE from a Dolby or DTS encoded track.

LFE (Low Frequency Effect) - The discrete content sent to the subwoofer from a Dolby or DTS encoded audio track. (The .1 in a 5.1 or 7.1 audio track)

LFE + Main - The low frequencies output to the Subwoofer whether the speaker channels are set to Large or Small.
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rjohn79395 Posted 3 years 4 months ago
Last edit: 3 years 4 months ago by rjohn79395. info_outline
#13860
Maybe I'm missing something in all the back and forth re where to direct crossover from small speakers, and where the LFE channel is directed... My understanding is that if fronts are set to LARGE, all bass from crossed over small speakers will go to the fronts (unless double bass is selected, in which case it goes to BOTH the fronts and the LFE channel). And LFE will go to LARGE fronts also, unless "sub on"is selected, in which it will be directed to subs (the sub portion of powered Tritons if those are the fronts).

If fronts are set to SMALL, and sub on, then and only then is the crossover bass under the front small crossover sent to the LFE channel. (I think that's correct.)

With powered Tritons as fronts and set to LARGE, the only reason to also have an LFE connection and sub on (other than to have options on which channel to direct bass) is to assure that the receiver or pre/pro doesn't roll off LFE channel bass WHEN IT IS PRESENT IN .1 FORMATS, to protect itself or prevent possibly overloading front speakers,(while it WILL send non rolled off bass to the LFE channel that it was not willing to send via the LARGE fronts channels). My own experience with a prior AVR was that I needed the LFE hook-up to prevent said bass roll-off to the fronts, and, yes, adding the LFE channel did improve bass. I haven't played around with my current AVR... since I already had the LFE channel, I just connected it, with all four Tritons set as LARGE, sub on, "in case" there could be any potential LFE bass roll-off under any conditions with the new receiver. I believe that is why Sandy changed his set-up tips over time, from "fronts as LARGE no sub", to "Fronts as LARGE, plus LFE, sub on", to provide the "just in case your receiver wants to roll off LFE" insurance.

That all being said, I do believe that the "safest" settings for Triton powered towers are "large", with LFE connected, sub on, which will direct all crossover bass from small speakers to the fronts, and any LFE channel inputs, without roll-off, to the subs (Triton powered towers in this case plus any other subs connected).

My, we seem to love to masticate this subject. I've tried lots of options, and have yet to find any option that can do better than GEt's internal crossover set-ups in their powered towers. I'm completely happy letting the Tritons do their thing with them set as large, sub on. We all love to experiment, and I love that, but for me, I've found what I want.

Happy listening!

Rick
5.4.4 HT speakers: T Ref fronts/LFE 1, SuperCenter Ref, T1 surrounds/LFE 2, HTR 7000 top fronts, Invisa 525 top rears
Zone 2 speakers; 2 Invisa 525's
AVR: Marantz SR 7010
Amps: AT525NC 5 channel, Parasound 275 v.2 stereo
Cable/TiVo, OPPO BDP 105D, SONOS Connect
47" Panasonic 3D smart tv
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ArthurDaniels Posted 3 years 4 months ago
#13861
I agree that there has been much discussion on this subject. And, I'm going to add a bit more to the topic.

There are two components to this bass discussion. LFE (Low Frequency Effect) signals are derived from the multi-channel audio sources by the processor in the AVR, in accordance with the encoding and decoding formats (Dolby, etc.).

But, there is also "Analog Bass", which is the low-frequency portion of the analog signal present during two-channel (stereo) playback.

How Analog Bass is presented to the speaker and/or sub-woofer outputs is a function of the type of AVR or amplifier in use and the capabilities of such units to distribute the low-frequency signals.

There can be significant difference in bass sounds between LFE originating from multi-track sources and analog bass sounds resulting from decoding the two-channel digital information on CDs, or direct analog inputs from turntables, cassette players, or other analog sources.

I believe that it is important to understand both of these bass components and the capabilities of the equipment in use, in order to find and implement the best setup for each individual's preferences.

Echo Happy Listening,

Art
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imahawki Posted 3 years 4 months ago
#13862

Moderator wrote:

Jarery wrote:

imahawki wrote: Finally, the other channels. This is where bass management comes in. Any speaker you set to small, your AVR will send the bass to wherever it sends the LFE channel. This is IN ADDITION to the LFE channel. They're still separate!!! If you have no subs, it will take all that bass from ALL your small speakers and send it to the L/R speakers. If you do have a sub, it will send it to the subwoofer. This routing has zero impact on the LFE channel.

Clear as mud?


Imahawki Thanks for the post. Your explanation is what I had also believed it should be. And here's where the confusion comes in, and why I asked specifically what happens to the audio under the crossover point from speakers set to small when a system has L&R set to large and the AVR sub out set to yes.

Moderator dude replied with the following : OK, here's a simple answer to the main question at the end: In that scenario C, all the bass below the crossover on small setting channels goes to the Large Main L/R speakers. Only LFE goes to your outboard subs (only).

This is counter to what you just posted. From my understanding based on Moderators reply, the ONLY way to get the bass under crossover setting from small speakers to get routed to an external sub is to have all the speakers set to small. As soon as any speakers are set to large, they receive all the bass from the small speakers. The only bass going to external subs in a system with Large speakers is LFE.

Yep, lots of mud. Perhaps Moderator can help clear the water again


You bet, simple answer, imahawki (and anyone else that says that) is wrong (no offense, confusing subject as all have said). Bass management operational/functional definition actually comes from Dolby (if you have a receiver or processor that does Dolby decoding, that would be everything, it has to conform to Dolby's bass management spec. There are actually five levels to this spec (or at least used to be, maybe there's more now) in terms of implementation options (levels of complexity actually). You need to be a licensee to see the spec document, and I was, and know it in detail, and was involved in implementation of the user interface for a very well respected electronics brand - in case my credentials are in question.

If Main (L/R) speakers are set to LARGE, LFE channel does not get SMALL channels' bass. That said, there are settings (like bass+ or double bass) that defeat this functionality. On most systems, if you answer NO to subwoofer you are forced to/can only set Mains to LARGE.


I didn't say LFE got SMALL channels' bass. I said it went to the subwoofer. Are you claiming it goes to the L/R?

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Moderator Posted 3 years 4 months ago
Last edit: 3 years 4 months ago by Moderator. info_outline
#13863

imahawki wrote: I didn't say LFE got SMALL channels' bass. I said it went to the subwoofer. Are you claiming it goes to the L/R?


Yes, that's not correct. If fronts are set to LARGE, small channels' bass does not go to the subwoofer, it goes to the L/R mains (unless bass+ or double bass is selected), sub gets LFE channel only.

In case anyone is interested, this setup is the Dolby bass management scenario that comes from commercial theaters, which use all full range speakers (large) and subwoofers driven by the LFE channel content.
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