file Missing Bass When Playing Stereo Content

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ArthurDaniels Posted 2 years 6 months ago
#23480

eXcalibur wrote: When the Triton 2's originally released, it was recommended not to connect the LFE cables and let the speakers manage the bass. When playing stereo 2.0 content, the bass sounded great.

Now I hooked up the LFE cables separately, and the subs sound great when playing 5.1+ content, but the bass sounds like it is missing when playing stereo 2.0 content. If I change my Denon receiver's bass settings to "Main + LFE", then the bass sounds right for stereo content.

So the problem I have is that I have to manually change my receiver's bass settings between"Main" to "Main + LFE" depending on whether I am listening to 2.0 or 5.1+ content.

Is there any harm to simply leaving my bass settings to "Main + LFE" or is this going to add unnecessary bass when listening to 5.1+ mixed content?


Hello Excalibur,

There are excellent comments from everyone who has responded to your original post. Perhaps I can add a bit more information to help you. The comments I offer below may or may not totally apply to your situation, so use them in the context of your setup and desires.

When an AV receiver processes audio content which contains an LFE component, the receiver expects to route that LFE signal to an independent sub via the sub out terminal on the receiver. So, your Denon's sub output should be connected to your Triton 2 LFE inputs. Use an audio cable splitter if your Denon has only one sub output - if the Denon has two sub out terminals, connect sub 1 to one of the Triton 2s and sub 2 to the other Triton 2. If your Denon has 2 sub outs, make sure that both are active (there may be a setting in the setup menu for activating both or one).

It has been my experience that the typical audible level of an LFE signal from a multi-channel movie source is noticeably louder than the bass component of two-channel music.

When you set the front speakers to Large or Full Range, the entire spectrum content of two-channel music is sent to the speaker terminals. There is no signal present at the sub out in this case for two-channel music, unless you activate the "Main + LFE" setting. With "Main + LFE" active, the low-frequency portion of the audio signal is simultaneously routed to the sub out terminal(s) - creating the so-called "Double Bass" effect because the bass portion is present at both the speaker terminals and the sub out terminal(s).

With this arrangement active, you should hear a much more pronounced bass signal for two-channel music. Best test for comparison is recorded music with thumpy bass content, or a set of test frequencies.

With double bass active, if you can set the LFE level control on your Triton 2s to a suitable level for both movies and music, great. If not, or if music bass sounds muddy and unmusical to you, then double bass is not your solution.

In that case, consider driving a separate powered sub from a line out (Record Out) connection on your Denon. Turn off double bass, leave the sub out connected to the Tritons and use the separate sub for augmented bass.

Comments you have read from others regarding bass roll-off in the Denon may be accurate. When I replaced my Onkyo 9.2 channel AV Receiver for music with a Cambridge 851A Integrated Stereo Amp, I noticed a general opening up of the entire musical spectrum (including bass). Another opportunity for audible musical improvement is to replace the Denon's built-in DAC with a good quality external DAC (my external DAC is a Cambridge Dac Magic Plus).

Another area to consider is the type of music you prefer. Listening to classical orchestral music is very different from listening to heavy rock music, so far as bass expectations are concerned.

I hope these comments help.

Happy Listening,

Art
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eXcalibur Posted 2 years 6 months ago
#23487
Thanks for all the responses everyone. I will try out all your suggestions. Trying things out is part of the fun and I appreciate the advice.
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HighPercentile Posted 2 years 5 months ago
#23799

ArthurDaniels wrote:

When you set the front speakers to Large or Full Range, the entire spectrum content of two-channel music is sent to the speaker terminals. There is no signal present at the sub out in this case for two-channel music, unless you activate the "Main + LFE" setting. With "Main + LFE" active, the low-frequency portion of the audio signal is simultaneously routed to the sub out terminal(s) - creating the so-called "Double Bass" effect because the bass portion is present at both the speaker terminals and the sub out terminal(s).



Art



Hmmm....interesting and generally true, however that’s not the case with either of the receivers that I’ve used with my T2’s. Originally I had a Marantz SR-7009 that I upgraded to the 7010 for its HDCP/UHD abilities (intentionally not purchasing the identically priced 7011 as Marantz stopped supporting Audessey DSX wide channels from the 7011 forward—-I love my Heights and Wides!!). We all know Sandy's advice on connecting the LFE inputs or not.

First off I do want to say that I never had any bass issues whatsoever as mentioned earlier in the thread re: Marantz/Denon/Onkyo equipment. Both receivers have always processed the bass channels correctly.

I have the 2’s always set to “Large” (Small sounds awful in any situation), and the receiver also has a Subwoofer Yes/No as well as a LFE or LFE + Main when the Sub is selected. Double-bass is VERY evident if I choose LFE + Main, as expected. So with an RCA LFE line running into both subs it’s an easy A/B bass test by switching the Sub Y/N setting. The receiver changes its output to the main banana plugs only and letting the speakers handle the crossover, or adds in the LFE line and handles the crossover itself (which I can also adjust). The difference between the two is fairly subtle but still quite distinct from the other. My ears generally favor using the LFE which gives the Xover to the Marantz—what I find is the bass notes are more “rounded” with a better bounce and distinction to them versus the pure Large setting where the bass is still nice and blends in well, but it often becomes just that much more difficult for me to pick out and follow without the aforementioned gentle “boing” to the notes. It’s particularly also a better punch for movies in surround formats. Every now and then I will go to straight 2.0 for certain music, usually when the mix may already be pushing the bass sound but it’s fairly rare overall.

I realize this isn’t a direct answer to the OP, but I did want to share my positive Marantz experience, it’s correct handling of bass, and my 2¢ on how I run my bass.
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ArthurDaniels Posted 2 years 5 months ago
#23801
Hello "HP",

Thanks for your detailed post regarding your Marantz experiences. I have often coveted having a Marantz Receiver, but I've never owned one.

If I correctly understand your post, your experience with using "Main + LFE" to augment the bass closely parallels my experience - which I have commented upon extensively in a number of previous posts under various topics.

I am still using augmented bass - although I am currently approaching it a bit differently. My Cambridge 851A Integrated Amp is driving my Triton Ones as Full Range Speakers. I am also driving a pair of Triton Sevens and a pair of SuperSat 3s with a Cambridge CXR120 AV Receiver. I am using the Record Out from the CXR120 to drive a Paradigm DSP 3400 Sub, via a Chase RLC-1 Line Controller - which essentially provides Double Bass in a way that I can separately control.

Sort of having my cake and eating it too - since I leave my Triton Ones alone to do their musical thing while I provide adjustable augmented bass as needed via the Paradigm. I have been working with the RLC-1's tone and level controls and the Paradigm's frequency and volume controls to balance the augmented bass against the natural bass coming from the Triton Ones.

Since all of this gear is devoted exclusively to music, all of my efforts are aimed at best musical sound.

One of my principal objectives with augmented bass is to achieve the same sort of bass enhancement you describe - especially at low listening levels.

If you become disenchanted with driving your Triton Twos with augmented bass, your might consider adding an external sub.

Best,

Art
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HighPercentile Posted 2 years 5 months ago
#23803
AD, I’m sorry but no, I actually didn’t mean that; however on re-read I can definitely see why it reads that way. I typed the entire thing while on an elliptical for the first time in years, and also recall cutting and pasting that one line about “LFE+Main gives double bass as expected” into that spot w/o realizing it basically changed the tone of everything after, when it was initially only mentioned as an FYI reference. In fact, the rest of the sentence could have read something like “...gives double-bass as expected, and becomes immensely un-listenable.” or words to that effect.

Sorry! :unsure: The Double-B does NOT work for me unless I want Boom City. My Marantz behaves “as expected”. Apologies to all who may misunderstand my post for all time.
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ArthurDaniels Posted 2 years 5 months ago
#23806
HP, I agree that driving the Triton bass section with a "Main + LFE" approach generally provides too much of a good thing - which is why, after much experimentation, I decided to implement "augmented bass" via a line controller and a separate sub, rather than with direct connection to my Triton Ones' LFE ports.

I utilize this augmented bass approach when I listen to certain music types at low volume levels, or to content which has "thin bass". In my situation, much of my listening is done at low volume levels, so having the option to augment the bass separately is desirable for certain types of music.

Happy Listening,

Art
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